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Wednesday, December 12, 2007 at 5:51 PM
Edited Wednesday, December 12, 2007 at 5:53 PM They're effective, but are more effective more some demographics than others. Many of the alternatives to them (though not nearly as ubiquitous) are just as good if not better certain demographics. Since therapy can be prohibitively expensive, and therefore not universally accessible to the fucked up people in the world, lay support groups are a very good idea. But having a diversity of approaches is probably a good idea, and no single modality has a monopoly on effectiveness. The outcomes always seem to correlate positively with the amount of treatment/participation more than with particular methods. Source: Obsessively worrying about and researching the effectiveness of lay support groups / recovery clubs for the last eight months. —ZT Spice |
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000 |
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Wednesday, December 12, 2007 at 5:52 PM I CANT IMAGINE IT WORKING FOR ME.. IF I HAD A PROBLEM. penn/teller said statistically it works exactly as well as just quitting on your own —000 |
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TortillaFactory |
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Wednesday, December 12, 2007 at 7:26 PM Penn and Teller are not doctors, nor addiction medicine specialists. I trust Drew in this case because he has seen so many facets of addiction and knows it so well. To a layman, someone might appear to be "cured" of addiction, but still not a happy/whole person. The idea behind twelve step, therapy, etc. is to make you healthy, not just make you stop doing drugs. That said, twelve step only works if you are committed to the program. Many people aren't. I think Drew has made that provision more than once. —TortillaFactory |
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ZT Spice |
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Wednesday, December 12, 2007 at 8:11 PM
Edited Wednesday, December 12, 2007 at 8:11 PM penn/teller said statistically it works exactly as well as just quitting on your own —000 It depends on what you mean by "it." Their show they claimed 5% of people recovered "naturally" (without treatment) from alcoholism, which they compared to a survey AA did some years ago of retention rates (people who continued to come to meetings) in their program, which showed that only about 5% of people stuck around. Have a look: http://thearidsite.tripod.com/AACOMMPR.PDF Not only is this comparing apples and oranges, but single digit percentages when measuring retention rates for self-help groups (of any variety) is par for the course. Gyms also have a low retention rate, it doesn't mean that exercise doesn't work or that one exercise program works just as well for everyone. That said, twelve step only works if you are committed to the program. Many people aren't. I think Drew has made that provision more than once. —TortillaFactory He's also discouraged people from attending "alternative" recovery programs, which is ashame. I've poured through the peer-reviewed research and the science shows reality is somewhere in between Penn Jillette and Dr. Drew. But don't take my word for it, go stand on the shoulder's of giants:
—ZT Spice |
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John Lennon |
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Wednesday, December 12, 2007 at 10:17 PM We actually talked about 12-step/recovery programs in one of my psych classes and the prof said that some people's resistance to them is based on the "Higher Power" concept being read by people as a religious idea, which it doesn't have to be. Even though AA was founded as a religiously based program, you don't have to be religious to participate in it. We also talked about Antabuse, and treatments like that which make people physically ill after even just tasting alcohol. I don't remember what the success rate was with those as compared to 12-Step programs, but I believe they were successful for some people. —John Lennon |
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anobody |
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Thursday, December 13, 2007 at 4:30 PM God - science education in schools really does suck. —anobody |
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TortillaFactory |
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Thursday, December 13, 2007 at 5:41 PM He's also discouraged people from attending "alternative" recovery programs, which is a shame. Drew's been around for a long time, and he's seen a lot of quack treatments come and go. I've heard him reserve judgment on alternative therapies, recommending the tried-and-true instead. I think this is a decent policy. It would be irresponsible for him to recommend something that hasn't proven itself yet. —TortillaFactory |
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ZT Spice |
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Thursday, December 13, 2007 at 6:27 PM
Edited Thursday, December 13, 2007 at 6:43 PM Which would be an extremely sound policy, if there hadn't been plenty of research comparing different addiction recovery treatments. Project MATCH compared cognitive behavioral therapy, motivational enhancement therapy and twelve-step facilitation therapy and found them all to be about equally as effect. The SHARP Study (Self Help Alcoholism Research Project) compared AA, a consumer run rational emotive behavior therapy program, and a no treatment control group and found AA to be about as effect as their RBT program (though exceptionally worse when it came to the abstinence violation effect -- even worse in that regard when compared to the control group). The results of SHARP were published in 1980, the results of MATCH were published in 1996. Those are just the two biggest studies. The smaller scale studies pretty much show the same thing, and go back much earlier. Now, I'll grant to your tried-and-true-ness argument that that AA was founded in 1937, while I've only referenced well published scientific findings establishing the effectiveness of other treatment approaches from a mere 27 years ago. So, lets look at another group established in 1937, Recovery, Inc. Though the term wasn't popular at the time, it's basically what people would call today cognitive behavioral therapy. It's very effective for treating mental illness, it's completely secular, and every study I've found on it has been very positive. Yet I've never heard it mentioned once on Loveline. So, it's clear that other approaches work. Other self-help groups for addiction recovery like SMART Recovery (which draws from many of the non-twelve-step disciplines studied in SHARP and MATCH) are out there, and work well. Let me quote from a recent study: "Survey data indicate that active involvement in support groups significantly improves one's chances of remaining clean and sober, regardless of the group in which one participates. Respondents whose individual beliefs better matched those of their primary support groups showed greater levels of group participation, resulting in better outcomes as measured by increased number of days clean and sober. Religious respondents were more likely to participate in 12-step groups and Women for Sobriety. Nonreligious respondents were significantly less likely to participate in 12-step groups. Religiosity had little impact on SMART Recovery participation but actually decreased participation in Secular Organizations for Sobriety. These results have important implications for treatment planning and matching individuals to appropriate support groups." Again, don't take my word for it, don't take Penn Jillette's word for it, and don't take Dr. Drew's word for it. Read. —ZT Spice |
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catloaf |
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Thursday, December 13, 2007 at 6:34 PM reading poisons the mind —catloaf |
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TortillaFactory |
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Thursday, December 13, 2007 at 7:01 PM I'm capable of reading medical studies, but I don't know if I'm capable of understanding them within the proper context. Any conclusions I draw will be unprofessional ones. Sure, doctors' opinions are colored by their own experiences, just like with everyone else. That's why, if I were to go into treatment for something like this, I would take the opinions of many different doctors from different backgrounds and consider them. Drew is biased towards AA for his own reasons. Whatever. It's just his opinion. His only responsibility is to recommend what he believes will be effective. I've heard him speak to people who don't like AA because of the religion issue, and my general impression of those people is that they are extremely angry-sounding and looking for excuses to avoid getting well. Thousands of atheists have overcome their resistance to a "higher power" and successfully completed AA. While I'm sure there are plenty of great alternatives, I don't see a problem with Drew consistently recommending his favorite program. —TortillaFactory |
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John Lennon |
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Thursday, December 13, 2007 at 8:23 PM I agree with TF about people finding reasons to avoid getting better. I think the main thing is they don't want to take direction or have people "telling them what to do". Listen everybody, these people are smarter than you and they know more than you so it's time to start listening to them! Otherwise, enjoy spiraling out of control and maybe you'll find Jesus at the bottom of a whiskey bottle and wind up becoming President. This is in fact one of the reasons why I think President Bush didn't want to go to AA/12-step and "got clean" on his own, he doesn't seem to be a big fan of listening to people who know more than him about things. I really wish Laura had left him, maybe that would have lit a fire under his ass and gotten him into 12-step, instead of jumping on the "Jesus is my addictionologist" bandwagon. But whatever. —John Lennon |
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ZT Spice |
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Thursday, December 13, 2007 at 8:32 PM Hiding treatment options from sick people just because they seem angry or don't like your personal favorite is just mean or arrogant. This whole "my program is better than you program" thing is really antithetical. At the end of the day, this should all really be about helping people recover. What's wrong with saying "my program is the best program for me?" I'll give Drew that twelve-steps are the most prevalent, so almost any loveline caller will be able to find one close by. But, if someone calls up and says "look, I really don't like AA, but I want to get better" and Drew knows what the other options are, he should tell them -- at least I'd have more respect for him if he did.
—ZT Spice |
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ZT Spice |
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Thursday, December 13, 2007 at 8:36 PM I agree with TF... —John Lennon If I had Einstein's reasoning skills, and Oscar Wilde's gift for prose, I couldn't have written a more devastating rebuttal to Tiffany's point. —ZT Spice |
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TortillaFactory |
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Thursday, December 13, 2007 at 8:48 PM Oddly enough, I just heard Drew on an old Loveline telling someone that people who are put off by AA's seemingly "religious" roots are looking for a reason to avoid getting well. This is his professional opinion based on years of being an addiction medicine specialist, and I respect it. I'm sure there are doctors who disagree, and that's fine. I side with Drew on this one, but nobody else has to. —TortillaFactory |
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ZT Spice |
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Thursday, December 13, 2007 at 8:52 PM People are entitled to their own opinions, they're not entitled to their own facts. —ZT Spice |
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anobody |
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Thursday, December 13, 2007 at 8:55 PM Funny thing about science - sides and authorities don't mean a damned thing. I don't know enough about this to know who is right or to what extent, but presumably, if someone conducted the right studies and you had the right evidence, the conclusion would be clear. ... that is - assuming that there actually is a clear conclusion. Considering the recidivism rates for addicts no matter what program or treatment they're on, it certainly seems possible that it's mostly a placebo/nocebo effect and that it doesn't really matter whether you go into AA, or wave a dead chicken over your head if you go in believing that either will work. —anobody |
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anobody |
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Thursday, December 13, 2007 at 8:56 PM That /\ was meant to be in response to Liz's "Oddly enough..." post - though it seems to do about as well where it landed. —anobody |
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TortillaFactory |
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Thursday, December 13, 2007 at 8:57 PM
Edited Thursday, December 13, 2007 at 8:58 PM it doesn't really matter whether you go into AA, or wave a dead chicken over your head if you go in believing that either will work. This was my point, kind of. If you go into AA ready to surrender to the program, it will work, and if you don't, it won't. If you're put off by some aspect of the program, chances are you're not ready for AA or anything else. This, to me, seems to be Drew's motivation for not recommending other programs. —TortillaFactory |
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anobody |
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Thursday, December 13, 2007 at 9:01 PM You kinda glossed over "it certainly seems possible" - I wasn't actually trying to say that that was necessarily the case. That said - as I follow your argument, if that was what you were saying, wouldn't the logical conclusion be that it's the willingness to surrender to a program or a dead chicken that leads to success, and not the program or the chicken, itself?
—anobody |
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TortillaFactory |
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Thursday, December 13, 2007 at 9:04 PM basically. the inherent value of the program vs. the dead chicken is that the program makes an effort to teach you how to relate to people in a healthy way, while the dead chicken just sits there and rots. —TortillaFactory |
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anobody |
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Thursday, December 13, 2007 at 9:06 PM But if it's the believing that really matters, then it doesn't matter if the chicken rots. ... anyway, minus a lot of compelling data this discussion is just masturbation. —anobody |
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TortillaFactory |
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Thursday, December 13, 2007 at 9:08 PM masturbation is fun. the MOST IMPORTANT part of twelve-step is surrendering and believing. that doesn't mean that the rest of it is worthless. —TortillaFactory |
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John Lennon |
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Thursday, December 13, 2007 at 9:09 PM This is what I said, too. People don't want to listen and they imagine they can "just change". I'm actually doing a behavior management project where I have a sponsor and can call him if I'm having trouble. I tried doing it at first without a sponsor and I kept doing what I had been doing in the past, I emailed my professor and told her about how I learned that I can't "just change", I have to have a sponsor to help me down the path of change. —John Lennon |
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anobody |
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Thursday, December 13, 2007 at 9:13 PM
Edited Thursday, December 13, 2007 at 9:14 PM Although it does talk about 12 step programs, that article seems to have absolutely no relevance to this discussion whatsoever. masturbation is fun I don't disagree... but it's an ineffective means of procreation. that doesn't mean that the rest of it is worthless It seems to me that ZT's argument isn't that the rest of it is worthless - just that there are alternatives that are as effective (though as far as I can tell, he seems to be standing on the same shaky non-empirical ground you and Drake are). —anobody |
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John Lennon |
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Thursday, December 13, 2007 at 9:14 PM
Edited Thursday, December 13, 2007 at 9:15 PM
"Results revealed modest beneficial effects of 12-step
attendance, which were mediated by motivation but not by coping or self-efficacy." From abstract —John Lennon |
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anobody |
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Thursday, December 13, 2007 at 9:18 PM You're certainly doing an excellent job of finding articles about 12 step programs... that don't say much how they compare to alternatives. —anobody |
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John Lennon |
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Thursday, December 13, 2007 at 9:21 PM Also, ZT, Dr. Drew doesn't seem to believe in Low's ideas about Will as much as he believes in Schopenhauer's ideas about Will. Therefore I would say that that would be one of the main reasons why Drew is so into 12-step, because the ideas behind it are the opposite of Low's ideas. As we know, addiction is the highjacking of the survival mechanisms of the brain, this means that Will doesn't even come into the picture. The brain thinks that "I'm going to die if I don't drink alcohol/do drugs"! You're smarter than this ZT!
—John Lennon |
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TortillaFactory |
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Thursday, December 13, 2007 at 9:23 PM there are a lot of different points floating around in this thread, some related, some not. ZT thinks Drew should recommend alternatives to AA. Why he doesn't is a question only Drew can answer. However, one of the most common objections to AA, and one ZT brought up, is the spiritual bit of the program. My theory is that Drew does not recommend alternatives to these people, because he believes they are not ready for ANY program if they're finding problems with AA. It's possible that they could find it easier to surrender to a different program, but Drew probably has his own reasons for believing this isn't the case. This discussion is entirely non-scientific and not really based on data; it's a question of whether you trust Drew's opinion or not as an addiction medicine specialist. As for the scientific studies regarding twelve-step programs and alternative recovery programs, I don't feel qualified to comment on this data. —TortillaFactory |
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John Lennon |
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Thursday, December 13, 2007 at 9:24 PM I am actually visiting the NIH in a few months, I might go up to NIDA/NIAAA and see what they have to say. More studies:
—John Lennon |
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John Lennon |
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Thursday, December 13, 2007 at 9:26 PM
Edited Thursday, December 13, 2007 at 9:28 PM
From Abstract: "In addition to formal treatment and informal recovery resources such as 12-step groups,
researchers have examined the role of a variety of psychosocial factors in achieving and
maintaining short-term abstinence. Among cognitive variables, several forms of motivation
have been associated with good substance use outcomes (e.g., Downey, 2000;Morgenstern et
al., 1997). In particular, commitment to total abstinence, as opposed to less stringent recovery
goals, has been found to predict short-term abstinence (e.g., Hall et al., 1991). Having
“something to lose” (e.g., friends, health, employment, freedom) if substance use continues
also motivates change and is associated with positive outcomes (e.g., Costello, 1975 et al;
Havassy et al., 1993;Vaillant, 1995). Social support from family and friends has been
consistently found to predict positive outcomes (e.g., Havassy et al, 1993;Humphreys and Noke
1997;Laudet et al., 2000; for review, see El-Bassel et al., 1998). Further, there is evidence that
while general support may be more important for overall well-being, the supportive network’s
attitudes toward substance use and recovery are better predictors of future substance use
(e.g., Beattie & Longabaugh, 1997). Friends’ acceptance of substance use is consistently found
to be negatively associated with short-term abstinence (e.g., Havassy et al., 1991;Longabaugh
et al, 1998;Project MATCH Research Group, 1997). Conversely, friends’ support for
abstinence is significantly and positively associated with short-term abstinence (e.g.,
Humphreys et al., 1997 and 1999)." —John Lennon |
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anobody |
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Thursday, December 13, 2007 at 9:31 PM ZT thinks Drew should recommend alternatives to AA. Just to get back on topic - I could swear I've heard Drew recommend Rational Recovery to people who objected to the "higher-power" and quasi-religious aspects of the 12-step groups. Am I just imagining that? Because, if not, it seems to me that the whole premise of this thread is flawed. —anobody |
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John Lennon |
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Thursday, December 13, 2007 at 9:39 PM I don't remember him saying that ever. Maybe I just haven't heard that episode yet. I do remember him saying that if people had an objection to a Higher Power, that it didn't have to be God, it could be chocolate, or masturbation, whatever, the important thing was to go to 12 Step and get a sponsor and start working the steps. —John Lennon |
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anobody |
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Thursday, December 13, 2007 at 9:41 PM I don't remember him saying that ever This means absolutely nothing considering that we've already established that your knowledge of Loveline is not encyclopedic. I am almost completely certain that I've heard him mention rational recovery by name as an alternative on more than one occasion. —anobody |
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ZT Spice |
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Thursday, December 13, 2007 at 9:41 PM As for the scientific studies regarding twelve-step programs and alternative recovery programs, I don't feel qualified to comment on this data. —TortillaFactory Well then, I won't be inviting you to my autodidacts club. —ZT Spice |
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plurry |
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Thursday, December 13, 2007 at 9:41 PM he's definitely mentioned it more than once, but he didn't give it much endorsement. —plurry |
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John Lennon |
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Thursday, December 13, 2007 at 9:43 PM
Edited Thursday, December 13, 2007 at 9:44 PM Ano is half-right once again. Did you miss the part where I said "MAYBE I JUST HAVEN'T HEARD THAT EPISODE YET"??? I wasn't saying you were wrong!!! —John Lennon |
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anobody |
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Thursday, December 13, 2007 at 9:45 PM Ano is half-right once again. Way to be a-hole. —anobody |
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Round Eye |
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Thursday, December 13, 2007 at 9:48 PM
Edited Thursday, December 13, 2007 at 9:52 PM STFU Drake, you bloated windbag. You are singlehandedly ruining the readability of this forum.
Pay more attention to your recovery from annoying people. —Round Eye |
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ZT Spice |
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Thursday, December 13, 2007 at 9:49 PM
Edited Thursday, December 13, 2007 at 9:57 PM ^ iawtc Just to get back on topic - I could swear I've heard Drew recommend Rational Recovery to people who objected to the "higher-power" and quasi-religious aspects of the 12-step groups. —anobody Rational Recovery is my least favorite the of "twelve-step alternatives." I have good, objective, reasons for saying that, but they'll have to wait for another time. At any rate, it's not mutual-aid addiction recovery program, it's a "buy my books and CDs" program. SMART Recovery and LifeRing Secular Recovery are cooler/better. But, yeah, if Drew mentioned RR, it would hurt my case. —ZT Spice |
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anobody |
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Thursday, December 13, 2007 at 9:49 PM Sorry my ass - at worst he gave it at least a half-hearted endorsement as an alternative to 12-step. ... but fine - think what you will. What the hell do I care? —anobody |
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anobody |
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Thursday, December 13, 2007 at 9:51 PM Mother fucking Drake. Again with the deleting of your posts? Is that really necessary? —anobody |
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Round Eye |
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Thursday, December 13, 2007 at 9:55 PM STFU Drake, you bloated windbag. You are singlehandedly ruining the readability of this forum.
Pay more attention to your recovery from annoying people. —Round Eye |
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ZT Spice |
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Thursday, December 13, 2007 at 9:57 PM Sorry my ass - at worst he gave it at least a half-hearted endorsement as an alternative to 12-step. ... but fine - think what you will. What the hell do I care? —anobody That was a reply to drake? —ZT Spice |
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anobody |
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Thursday, December 13, 2007 at 10:13 PM
Edited Thursday, December 13, 2007 at 10:15 PM Yeah. Seriously - what the hell was even the point of deleting that? —anobody |
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John Lennon |
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Thursday, December 13, 2007 at 10:16 PM I knew you wouldn't accept my apology. It has been so long since I was last here I forgot you could go back and recreate deleted posts. There goes my fun. —John Lennon |
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anobody |
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Thursday, December 13, 2007 at 10:19 PM What the fuck kind of an apology is that exactly? That's not "I'm sorry", it's more like "sorry... but you're wrong" (at least that's how I read it). Your "fun" just makes you look like a jackass and pisses everybody else off. —anobody |
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Dark Laith |
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Friday, December 14, 2007 at 11:01 AM STFU Drake, you bloated windbag. You are singlehandedly ruining the readability of this forum.
Pay more attention to your recovery from annoying people. —Round Eye quoted because it needs to be repeated (again) —Dark Laith |
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ZT Spice |
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Friday, December 14, 2007 at 12:22 PM It seems to me that ZT's argument isn't that the rest of it is worthless - just that there are alternatives that are as effective —anobody Twelve-steps are pretty good. But the fundamentalist adherence Drew has to them, and this idea that they're the only method for treating addiction and co-dependence is... well... fundamentalist. The way he berates some of the callers who don't take well to twelve-steps, when there's other options out there, if you look at the research he doesn't have a leg to stand on. (though as far as I can tell, he seems to be standing on the same shaky non-empirical ground you and Drake are). —anobody That's the last thing I expected to hear from you. —ZT Spice |
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John Lennon |
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Friday, December 14, 2007 at 12:51 PM I am not standing on non-empirical ground, I posted all those journal studies about the effectiveness of 12-steps. —John Lennon |
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anobody |
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Friday, December 14, 2007 at 5:40 PM To be compelling and convincing, you need a preponderance of evidence (and it'd help if the evidence you cite was actually relevant). That's the last thing I expected to hear from you. I've seen that before... I believe it's sarcasm. Twelve-steps are pretty good. But the fundamentalist adherence Drew has to them, and this idea that they're the only method for treating addiction and co-dependence is... well... fundamentalist. Can't really argue with you there. Not very surprising though - he is part of the orthodoxy, after all. Also, I have no doubt that he has seen plenty of ineffective fads and sham methods, so his skepticism is understandable... which isn't to say that AA actually works all that well either. The way he berates some of the callers who don't take well to twelve-steps, when there's other options out there, if you look at the research he doesn't have a leg to stand on. Not having done so, I'll just take your word for it... but I can't help but wonder if you might not have similar biases to Drew's (though in a different direction). —anobody |
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ZT Spice |
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Friday, December 14, 2007 at 5:52 PM Everyone is biased. I believe in this situation I'm being pretty fair. —ZT Spice |
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John Lennon |
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Friday, December 14, 2007 at 6:25 PM The studies I posted said besides going to 12-step, one of the key factors in 12-step being effective is the people wanting to participate and follow through with the program. I think Drew is so enamored with 12-step because in his experience, that is what he has seen work the best. He's never said it works all the time for everyone, just that it has been the most effective for addicts in his experience. —John Lennon |
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000 |
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Saturday, December 15, 2007 at 10:20 AM drew also overrates therapy if dad banged me anally for 10 years as a kid, no talking to a therapist would help me as an adult —000 |
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ZT Spice |
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Saturday, December 15, 2007 at 10:31 AM The studies I posted said besides going to 12-step, one of the key factors in 12-step being effective is the people wanting to participate and follow through with the program. I think Drew is so enamored with 12-step because in his experience, that is what he has seen work the best. He's never said it works all the time for everyone, just that it has been the most effective for addicts in his experience. —John Lennon How about you go a 12-step group? —ZT Spice |
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anobody |
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Saturday, December 15, 2007 at 10:34 AM This seems like an excellent suggestion. —anobody |
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plurry |
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Saturday, December 15, 2007 at 11:13 AM poser anon? —plurry |
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John Lennon |
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Saturday, December 15, 2007 at 1:02 PM What 12 Step group do you think I should go to, ZT & Ano? —John Lennon |
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John Lennon |
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Saturday, December 15, 2007 at 1:09 PM Drew said on his AM show that that didn't work for people. —John Lennon |
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ZT Spice |
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Saturday, December 15, 2007 at 2:04 PM Try Co-Dependents Anonymous. —ZT Spice |
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John Lennon |
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Saturday, December 15, 2007 at 2:10 PM I read a little of that book Codependent No More on Ano's suggestion, and it mainly seemed to talk about people who were codependent being children of addicts/alcoholics, and my parents aren't either of those, so I didn't think it could help me. But I am reading a cool book about Affect and the Birth of the Self that my therapist wants me to read over the break, but I don't think I will be able to since I will be around my parents and they'll want to know, "Why are you reading THAT book?"
—John Lennon |
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ZT Spice |
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Saturday, December 15, 2007 at 2:22 PM Co-Dependents are people who grew up in dysfunctional families including, but not limited to, children of addicts and alcoholics. All of the various auxiliary groups of addiction groups are basically for treating co-dependence under particular circumstances (e.g. Al-Anon, Nar-Anon, GamAnon, etc). You grew up in a dysfunctional family, BTW. —ZT Spice |
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anobody |
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Saturday, December 15, 2007 at 2:24 PM You grew up in a dysfunctional family, BTW. No wai!?!? —anobody |
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ZT Spice |
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Saturday, December 15, 2007 at 2:26 PM
Edited Saturday, December 15, 2007 at 2:33 PM BTW - What show (e.g. which date) was drew talking about Emotions Anonymous on? It would be interesting if he said that, because I originally went to EA when I heard him mention it on Loveline. But it turned out to be a little bit disappointing the longer I stayed in it. Compared to GROW and even Recovery, Inc. Emotions Anonymous kind of sucks. Which is why I have plans to take it over. I wonder if he did a little research or had a little experience with EA and found the same things? —ZT Spice |
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anobody |
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Saturday, December 15, 2007 at 2:37 PM BTW - What show (e.g. which date) was drew talking about Emotions Anonymous on? What are you talking about? He said that Drew said that and that should be good enough for you. It's almost like you want citations, you crazy bastard. It would be interesting if he said that... I'm sure he mentioned it, but I am curious to know how much Drake's filtered version differs from what Drew actually said. ... not curious enough to actually look into it or anything, but if you do it for me so that it requires zero effort, I'd be vaguely interested in finding out what you find out —anobody |
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John Lennon |
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Saturday, December 15, 2007 at 2:49 PM I believe it was on one of the podcasted shows from this week. He was talking to a caller who was a codependent bartender. —John Lennon |
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anobody |
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Saturday, December 15, 2007 at 2:52 PM wait a second... you still listen to Loveline? 
—anobody |
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lexieho |
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Saturday, December 15, 2007 at 3:27 PM query: ^ where's that picture from...the internette is just too confusing sometimes. —lexieho |
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ZT Spice |
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Saturday, December 15, 2007 at 3:38 PM The picture is from invasion of the body snatchers. ... actually a pretty good movie. —ZT Spice |
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John Lennon |
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Saturday, December 15, 2007 at 3:47 PM Just checked on the Codependents Anonymous website, and there are no Codependents Anonymous meetings near me, which is kind of weird because I live in the state capital. I might ask my friend who works at a medical hospital about what they offer when I go for a milkshake with her tomorrow. —John Lennon |
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ZT Spice |
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Sunday, December 16, 2007 at 8:40 AM So, Drake was right about what Drew said on his show regarding EA. It was on the first part of his December 10th show. If you download that show he mentions it in a discussion with Anderson in response to a call that starts at around 11:53, they don't really get to talking about it until about the last minute or so (segment ends at 18:36). He says that the kind of change that happens in other 12-steps doesn't happen so much in EA for regular people. This is true. There is a shit ton of people in EA who don't have real problems, and they drag groups and the rest of the program down. They tend to be older, retired, women (50+) who seem to be looking for something to do. But it is strange to hear Drew say this about EA. I originally went to EA when I could no longer afford to see a therapist, didn't have access to a free or low-cost therapy program from a university or something similar, and was completely fucking depressed and figured I should be doing SOMETHING. I remember Drew mentioned Emotions Anonymous to a non-addict bi-polar girl on Loveline once, and there was a group in Denver, so I went. I'm going to try to give Loveline a call tonight and ask him a little about it.
—ZT Spice |
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ZT Spice |
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Sunday, December 16, 2007 at 8:45 AM And just to drive home the point, this is a pretty short-and-sweet article reviewing the evidence of self-help groups for mental health. Emotions Anonymous isn't mentioned, but the general idea is sound, it mentions GROW and Recovery, Inc. -- which always seem to do pretty good.
—ZT Spice |
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anobody |
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Sunday, December 16, 2007 at 8:59 AM But it is strange to hear Drew say this about EA... I remember Drew mentioned Emotions Anonymous to a non-addict bi-polar girl on Loveline once, and there was a group in Denver, so I went. Maybe Drew's opinions on EA are just a bit nuanced? —anobody |
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John Lennon |
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Sunday, December 16, 2007 at 10:39 AM
Edited Sunday, December 16, 2007 at 10:40 AM You grew up in a dysfunctional family, BTW You mean most people's moms don't stay in bed continuously for 3 years, and then go to Florida for the whole winter? And most people's dads don't tell them that their depressive thoughts are "Satan talking to you"? "The truth will set you free, but first it will piss you off". —John Lennon |
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ZT Spice |
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Sunday, December 16, 2007 at 10:58 AM Maybe Drew's opinions on EA are just a bit nuanced? —anobody Mine are. If I can get through tonight, I'll see what he has to say. —ZT Spice |
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ZT Spice |
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Sunday, December 16, 2007 at 11:00 AM You mean most people's moms don't stay in bed continuously for 3 years, and then go to Florida for the whole winter? And most people's dads don't tell them that their depressive thoughts are "Satan talking to you"? —John Lennon Where do you live, again? —ZT Spice |
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ZT Spice |
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Sunday, December 16, 2007 at 11:07 AM Just curious to know what major city you're that has no CoDA meetings in it. —ZT Spice |
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anobody |
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Sunday, December 16, 2007 at 11:54 AM Think about his name (hint: not the dead former Beetle) for about half a second and Google if you must (if you care enough to be bothered). If I can get through tonight The question might kill you with the screeners, but I'm sure you can get in to them if you start trying a few minutes before the show. If you really want to talk with him though, maybe it'd be wiser to try on his AM show. —anobody |
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John Lennon |
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Sunday, December 16, 2007 at 1:19 PM
Edited Sunday, December 16, 2007 at 1:23 PM I am in the crapital city, called "Dead" Moines. My friend and I talked today about how much this town sucks. We both want to move out to California, where it's beautiful weather and you can smoke weed and no one bothers you and you can smoke as long as it's not on the beach, and everything is cool. She said I should try setting boundaries with my parents or just cutting ties with them. I told her about what I was worried about as far as the future and college, she said, "How come you can tell me all this stuff and you can't tell your therapist about it?" I said, "Because you're not my therapist". I found out we are both reading the same book for our therapy. And we talked about her breakup and her classes and her job. She didn't know what Clerks was so I explained about Dante and Randal and I invited her to be on my radio show next semester. She said she thought she would be nervous and I said it's just like having a normal conversation but with microphones. Right Ano? Well with us it was like having an argument but over the phone.
Ano: "Stop playing so many Loveline drops!"
E Money: "They make the show more entertaining!"
Ano: "But you do it too much!"
E Money: " *Violent J* You are an ASS HOLE! *Ano drop* "Yeah, I'm just an asshole!" —John Lennon |
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ZT Spice |
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Sunday, December 16, 2007 at 2:51 PM The question might kill you with the screeners, but I'm sure you can get in to them if you start trying a few minutes before the show. —anobody IT seems like they give people more latitude on Sundays than on other nights. It would also give Drew a chance to surreptitiously plug his AM show. —ZT Spice |
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anobody |
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Sunday, December 16, 2007 at 2:57 PM Well (as always) if you do get through, be sure to let us know (and hopefully someone will be kind enough to make and post a clip). —anobody |
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ZT Spice |
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Monday, December 17, 2007 at 10:31 PM I couldn't get in on Loveline. The phone screener suggested I call in on Drew's KGIL show. Going to give it a shot, but it will be hard with work. It's enough to make me want to lie about my question. —ZT Spice |
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