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Anonymous |
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Saturday, October 4, 2003 at 9:53 PM for those of you interested in some of the subject matter on the show, and drew's philosophies on child abuse and parenting, you should check out the documentary "stevie" now on dvd. its fucked up. basicly its about a film maker who goes back to visit the person who once was his little brother in the big brother/little brother program. he gets there right about the time his former little brother (stevie) is arrested for sexually abusing an 8 year old. during the film, you learn about stevie's extended family, and how each of them experienced different types and levels of abuse, and how some of them have insight into it (his aunt), and others dont (his mom.) we find out that as a kid, stevie was severely abused to the point he was broken down developmentally, then he was shipped off to foster homes where he was raped regularliy, he goes on to molest his half sister, who later forgives him and is one of the only stable people in the family who tries to support him. alot of other complex and compelling stuff. a great study of human behavior. —despicable asshole |
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Logo Lou |
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Saturday, October 4, 2003 at 10:04 PM I remember reading reviews of that. They all agreed stevie was a criminal but that it's not like it was a big surprise he became one (shoooooocking) given his background. The whole forgiveness thing always blows my mind. I can't imagine EVER forgiving someone who molested me or anyone in my family, no matter how fucked their childhood was. —Logo Lou |
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Anonymous |
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Saturday, October 4, 2003 at 10:30 PM But L.L. hypotheticaly speaking, what if someone in your family molested someone? Suppose that your brother/sister was molested which lead them to compulsively molest someone else at a later date? Wouldn't you be a bit more likely to forgive them for their crime? Or moreover, what if you were molested and eventually gave in to the "molesting" urge that children of chaos so often give in to -- wouldn't you want people to be a little more understanding of your chaotic childhood which lead to your inevitable crime? I'm obviously not condoning molestation, but I am saying that our society should learn to hate the crime and not the criminal (as hard as that may be.) —devil's advocate |
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Anonymous |
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Sunday, October 5, 2003 at 2:33 AM Quote: "...society should learn to hate the crime and not the criminal..." -this is an ignorant concept. One of the problems with this society is that everything is abtracted to the point of being a superficial image without feeling, consequences, any relevance to reality. Slogans like "stop the killing," "hate the player not the game," and even "give peace a chance" become ever more meaningless every time they are repeated. The biggest problem with this idea is that everyone gets to play victim, void of accountability for their actions. People need to take responsibility from where they stand in the present moment. We all have been mistreated and mistreat in varying degrees at different times. Hating a symptom or behavior is pointless. Start taking responsibility for your actions, including judging anything you or anyone else does. —God ...zilla (for those who don't like my name) |
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da the First |
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Sunday, October 5, 2003 at 3:22 AM while you see how stevie was created, as an adult there's not alot to like about him. you kinda feel like he should just be "put down." like there is no hope left for him. maybe the severe abuse as a child could have been helped with immediate therapy, but that didnt happen. as drew has revealed time and time again, the idea of merely "taking action" or "personal responsibility" comes from people with a fundamental misunderstanding of human behavior. abuse changes brain chemistry. it changes your ABILITY to be an responsible adult. someone in the movie says "they say it takes a village to raise a child, but what do you do when the village fails?" like i said, i dont think there is hope for stevie. he's wrecked. if he were taken out, i dont think it would be a loss. however, you have to look at the entire picture - people arnt isolated entities, we're all part of a larger structure. there is alot of people that have to (or should) carry the burden of what and who stevie is. most importantly, his mother.
on a side note, i read ebert's review of the movie, and he ended it with a few lines of a poem by phillip larkin. i thought this poem, written in 1971, sums up alot of what drew, and adam (especially the last two lines), talk about...
This Be The Verse They fuck you up, your mum and dad.
They may not mean to, but they do.
They fill you with the faults they had
And add some extra, just for you. But they were fucked up in their turn
By fools in old-style hats and coats,
Who half the time were soppy-stern
And half at one another's throats. Man hands on misery to man
It deepens like a coastal shelf.
Get out as early as you can,
And don't have any kids yourself. (1971)
—da |
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Logo Lou |
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Sunday, October 5, 2003 at 9:21 AM Hypotheticaly? Nope, still wouldn't forgive. I can understand perhaps from their skewed perspective, pity them, and maybe even in an extreme case somewhat sympathize for the criminals plight... but forgive? Nope. —Logo Lou |
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Mahalo |
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Sunday, October 5, 2003 at 11:40 AM I agree with Adam's take on this subject. Molestors were more likely than not abused themselves, and that is horrible, but the cycle needs to be stopped somewhere. I don't really agree with his "bullet in the head" solution because there are more realistic ways to go about reducing abuse. In fact, he and Drew mention it every night: BIRTH CONTROL! We need to prevent children from being born into abusive and/or neglectful environments in the first place. As Drew has mentioned, it would be a very good idea to make birth control a requisite for receiving welfare. Norplant(yes, I know it is off the market) or Depo Provera would probably be the best suited for this. This is far from an all encompassing solution but I think it's a step in the right direction. To paraphrase Adam, we need to lay off the guy with a pot plant in his kitchen and start worrying about crack fiend momma with nine bastard children. —Mahalo |
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Anonymous |
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Sunday, October 5, 2003 at 3:53 PM Dag nabbit, it's good to see you kids having constructive, intelligent conversation about a very emotion-charged and volatile topic. On a side note, Ron Jeremy learned he could blow himself when he was a kid at summer camp. Called his father from camp to ask if this was normal, and his father said that, while there's nothing wrong with it, he should probably keep that knowledge to himself.
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Anonymous |
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Sunday, October 5, 2003 at 4:26 PM "...the idea of merely "taking action" or "personal responsibility" comes from people with a fundamental misunderstanding of human behavior. abuse changes brain chemistry..." Everyone undergoes a degree of abuse as they grow up in this harsh environment on our planet. All of our chemistries have been altered, (so-called normal, healthy, well-adjusted people less so). Are we all locked into a reactionary reflex behavior that we have no control over? We do have to take responsibility for our existence at some point or forever live as victims and as the consequence of someone elses actions. All this means is that today, in this moment, I recognize and acknowledge I am here and what I do from this moment forward is my decision. This may mean taking the first step in a 12-step program by acknowledging I have no power over my demons. There are 11 more steps to take and I am the one placing the next foot forward. The alternative is to run away and avoid any attempt to see clearly and make any effort to learn about myself so I can get to through the program. The "program" -a metaphor- is not life just one large 12-step program- the process is just a steeper climb the more you are hung up on some experience? —God ...zilla |
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da the First |
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Sunday, October 5, 2003 at 6:07 PM its a little more complex than that, kid. its not like abuse is one thing. even if you take two kids who are raped at age 4, they're gonna turn out different. it depends on the structure they have around them. its funny, in the movie, stevie is one of the people who would agree with your world view. and he's nearly retarded. —da |
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Anonymous |
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Sunday, October 5, 2003 at 11:19 PM "More complex" you say as though you really know how complex, and who are you? You think you know so much because you watched a documentary? Let's see you explain why I am incorrect without insulting anyone. Condescension is about as close to a lofty intellect as you are capable of feeling. —God ...zilla |
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Art |
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Monday, October 6, 2003 at 12:29 AM Godzilla- Don't let this da bother you. He doesn't even know punctuation and what ought we expect of one who knows himself as a "despicable asshole"??? —Art |
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Mike (not-the-first) |
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Monday, October 6, 2003 at 2:48 AM It's funny how people will cite the wisdom of others as though it reflects their own. Someone listens to a radio show, perhaps diligently, and believes they have the expertise to reference Drew's words as though they fully understand what is behind them. The poem quoted advocates "...Get out as early as you can..." How is this possible without first recognizing you are not locked in and can actually "get out"? Doesn't this require taking responsibility for your future and taking some action? These are questions that logically come to mind reading this thread. —Mike (not-the-first) |
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Cracked |
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Monday, October 6, 2003 at 3:11 AM It is our own knowledge and understanding of the world that we see when we address other people. We do not see anything we don't have within ourselves. When you disrespectfully refer to people as being equivalent to a "retard" you are only seeing the "retard" that is inside you and displaying your lack of self-respect. The interest in this "compelling stuff" reveals a lot. —Cracked |
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greg |
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Monday, October 6, 2003 at 3:55 AM "It's a little more complex than that..." "its not like abuse is one thing. even if you take two kids who are raped at age 4, they're gonna turn out different. it depends on the structure they have around them." -da -It's a little more complex than this DUMB explanation. —Greg |
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da the First |
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Monday, October 6, 2003 at 7:39 AM
"It's funny how people will cite the wisdom of others as though it reflects their own."
where does knowledge come from, if not from others? isnt this how civilization is transmitted? "We do not see anything we don't have within ourselves." interesting. if i think somebody has a retarded world view, i can't judge them as such, because it means I'M a retard. conversely, if you think somebody is a genius, you must be a genius. i'm sure some of you didnt follow that DUMB reasoning. but i wont judge you for it...
i didnt say i dont think stevie could use a "bullet in the head." but people are not islolated agents. we're all responsible for one another. maybe thats WHY somebody should intervene and put a bullet in his head. but they should also think about putting a bullet in his mothers head.
—da |
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da the First |
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Monday, October 6, 2003 at 8:40 AM "The poem quoted advocates "...Get out as early as you can..." How is this possible without first recognizing you are not locked in and can actually "get out"? Doesn't this require taking responsibility for your future and taking some action?" and when a person is incapable of doing this, its society's (friends, family or aquantences of the individual) responsibility to step in and do something, for better or worse. i dont know, i dont think there's any question that some people are so emotionally or socially retarded that they are unable to take responsibiltiy for themselves. and that often there was a cause and effect involved in them getting to that point. if you think differently, oh well. —da |
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greg |
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Monday, October 6, 2003 at 1:39 PM da- When you explain your thoughts you sound like a high school drop out trying to pretend you are something you saw on TV. You are so fascinated with this topic because you are like stevie's abusers. —Greg |
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Mahalo |
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Monday, October 6, 2003 at 7:48 PM Another thread that deteriorates to Ad Hominem craziness. SHOCKING! —Mahalo |
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Tom |
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Monday, October 6, 2003 at 8:38 PM This "da" took the thread down as soon as he did not receive full agreement with his warped thinking. Not that anyone agreed, once someone clearly disagreed, he equated them to a retard. As someone already alluded, why bother interacting with someone calling themselves a "despicable asshole." Open a thread as a passive observer making commentary then attack anyone who does not mesh with your view of the world. It is a bate and switch tactic. BTW, you can look at the reaction to a post as a barometer in the same manner that Adam's reaction to callers is a barometer. Drew has pointed out that Adam automatically clicks into abuser mode when a caller is the victim of abuse. The same is true of the response a post gets. When people go into attack mode it because they are participants in abuse -at either end. —Tom |
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Anonymous |
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Monday, October 6, 2003 at 11:51 PM Fallacies running rampant, in addition to ad hominem, there's a dash of non sequitur and hasty generalizing. —Socrates |
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